7.29.2005

An Objectivist Christian is Not a Contradiction

I reread some comments today made by Loxley, Hegel, John Galt, Pooh, and others, but today I decided to respond to the comments made by Hegel and Galt about how Christianity can work in accordance with objectivism. You may not understand this post unless you first read the comments from my post in April: Problems with Objectivism

First off, the truth is multifaceted. This is not to imply that the truth is relative, but rather that the truth has many aspects to it. The sky is blue. The sky is also white, grey, black, and yellow. If it is raining and I say the sky is blue, then I am lying. If it is sunny and I say the sky is gray, I am also lying. And if the sky is blue, but has clouds, than from the ground the sky is both blue and white. Does that mean that the truth is relative? Absolutely not. There is a clear truth visible: the sky is a certain color depending on what time of day it is, whether their is a storm system, or if there are any other objects in the sky.

I absolutely believe that the Bible is the truth. I do not, however, believe that the Bible is the whole truth. The Bible does not state that my shirt has the words "Star Wars" written on it right now. That does not mean that it is untrue that my shirt has the words "Star Wars" written on it nor does it mean that the Bible is a failure for representing the truth because it does not state the truth that my shirt does in fact, at this moment, say “Star Wars” on it. This is a rather trivial example. A more important one may be this: The Bible states that I am supposed to give to the poor. However, the Bible also states, “If anyone will not work, neither let him eat.” Is the first argument a support for welfare? Is the second argument mean that I should not give out food without demanding that that person should work somehow? The Bible is a foundation of understanding the truth, but ultimately we must use that foundation to discover the whole truth through living. This discovery is what led me to Ayn Rand.

When I began reading Atlas Shrugged, I was in a period of frustration with the church. I did not believe that the values of the church were the values I saw in the Bible. I always believed that God existed. I believe that that one God is the Father and that he sent his son, Jesus, to die on the cross for our sins. For much of my childhood, I believed this fact because of personal emotional feelings about this matter or apologetic evidence that frequently turned out to be unsupportable against other scientific evidence. There was a sort of crisis at this time for me. Was my concept of the Bible wrong or were the concepts of the Bible held by the church wrong?

At the time, I had been studying political philosophy and had grown attached to the concept of natural law. Rather than just picking a political ideology, natural law demanded that one study the nature of the world and then determine what law structure works best with nature. It's such an amazingly effective tool for understanding politics. Communism, for example, does not work because it denies the reality of the nature of men. It assumes that the Bourgeois are the only ones who desire power. In reality, when absolute power is available, corrupt men always find a way to fill this position - poor and rich men alike. Once you understand the nature of men, you can start creating a political philosophy that functions around that idea. If when absolute power is made available, bad men will naturally take over, then do not make absolute power available. You repeat this process to ever aspect of the political system, and you find the system of government that you want. This is wonderful, because when people begin using the label of a political system to support an idea (i.e. a democratic leader saying the only way to secure democracy is by giving this leader absolute power) one can refer back to the nature of the world and the origins of the political system to recognize that idea is flawed.

This seemed like a terribly fantastic thing to also apply to religion. There was a contradiction in the Christianity that I believed in and the Christianity I saw all around me. So, I decided to take the argument down to the very foundations of how I saw the natural world and how that made me believe in God ("Check your premises" -Ayn Rand). If there is a God, then the world He created must be a reflection of how He expects me to live. If it is not, and the whole thing is a great deception, then either God does not exist or he is not any sort of God I wish to follow. The concept of the world I agreed must strongly with was the objectivist idea and it is as follows:

Man's first issue is to survive. A human must breath, eat, and drink first before he can make any decisions. Life is the highest value for any human. How can a human make good choices unless they are alive? That is not to say that choosing to die is a bad choice, it simply means that one must be alive long enough to find out what are good choices. Living, however, is a volitional issue. Every person chooses to eat and drink. Every person has the capacity to not eat and drink. In order to eat and drink, a person has to exercise their mind to achieve this. We have to learn what liquids we can drink (i.e. water) and how to find liquids that are safe for our bodies (i.e. clean water). We have to practice a life that gets food. In the modern world, one has to work to contribute to an economy that shuffles money around so that man can purchase food. Survival, in this terribly oversimplified paragraph, is something secured by rationality. Exercising our minds is the only way we live.

This is a happy thought, indeed. Rationality is a process anyone can do. It implies that a person is capable of thinking within himself exactly what is necessary to do to live. However, it gets really complicated when lots of minds become involved. If another man tells you to do something, but rationally you see no reason for doing it, should you trust his rationality or your own? This is where egoism comes into play. Some men have discovered that manipulating other men into not thinking for themselves can be an easy way to gain things without having to do the work himself. This is not rational behavior because it encourages men to not provide for society, but to mooch off of others. But if no one provides, then everyone will die. Rather than forcing other people to do you work, it is much more rational to do the work yourself. If every man provides for himself, there is no problem. This does not mean that some mean will not try to undermine the whole of society for their own irrational interests. But as men cannot read each other's minds, the only way to protect from being mooched off of from another man is to be dependent entirely on your own rationality. If another man provides rational evidence to gain your support, you can join him, as long as you are still judging evidence through your own rationality rather than depending on the rationality of others.

There are other founding ideas that develop important concepts for other aspects of life, but these three ideas--life, rationality, and egoism--are the reasons I believe in the Christian God and are means for me to better interpret the concepts of Christianity.

First, God created humans to desire life. He wanted humans to want to live on Earth. That means that on some level He wanted humans to define their standards of life simply for the sake of living. God, therefore, is benevolent--He has not created a standard in one world that has to be contradicted in order to live in the afterlife.

Second, if God wanted humans to live for living on Earth, He must also desire that humans live rationally, since that is the best way to pursue life. More support for God as a benevolent being--every human has the capacity to be rational and therefore every being is capable of obeying His will and doing good.

Lastly, if God wanted rationality, He must have also wanted people to be egoistic. It is rational for every being to trust in their own rationality to come to decisions. This shows that God is benevolent because He does not create a primary means of understanding that is found outside the make-up of the human mind. Every human being has the capacity to understand the truth of God within themselves.

(In theory, God could be extraordinarily malicious, creating a world where it seems evident to pursue life, rationality, and egoism, but have a supernatural standard of death, irrationality, and selflessness. Such a god is a deceiver, and I will not worship a deceiver. If hell is the existence opposite of this god that is where I wish to be. Also in theory, there could be no God and this is simply the nature of the universe, but by the objectivist philosophy, this matters very little. I am still living my life to the fullest capacity because I am living it by the standards I believe are evident, and in accordance, with Earth.)

I believe in the Christian God because I believe that the Bible is intended to help Christians live on Earth the best way possible, has standards that are rational, and encourage men to live by the rationality of their own minds. Because I am an egoist, I do not follow the opinions of other Christians just because they tell me they are Christians. Because I am rational, I listen to the opinions of others, but ultimately decide how to respond based on my own rationality. Because I believe in life on Earth, I do not become deceived that I should do something simply based on argument that I will see a reward in Heaven.

That very last fact is critically important, and Ayn Rand did not understand this concept. She was frustrated with Christianity because she believed that it was necessary in Christian principle to always defer to the mystical goal of getting into Heaven. This is a fallacy in a lot of common Christian practices. Being Christian is not about getting into Heaven. Being Christian is about living your life in the way that tries to act like the perfect symbol of life, rationality, and individual perfection: God. The hope is that in living this way, we can carry on a relationship with this entity that created the standard of living on Earth. God is the greatest producer. Heaven is the hope that Christians have that death is not the final action we will have with the creator of Earth, the maker of all things good. The hope is that for making right choices here, despite the temptation of making bad choices, we will be rewarded by living in a place where there is no irrationality, no irrational selfishness, and no death. I am an objectivist because I believe that God created an objective world so that I could use objectivism to come to Him.

Objectivism is the word that Ayn Rand uses to define her philosophy, which she also calls “The Philosophy for living on Earth.” So, if that philosophy espouses atheism, how can I use that philosophy to prove God exists? Objectivism is about life, egoism, and rationality (it includes other things, but with relation to religion, these three ideas are supreme), anything else is an interpretation of those ideas on life. Ayn Rand believed that parts of the Bible contradicted the values of Earth, specifically the concept of altruism. Altruism is the process of giving without rationality. I do not believe that the Bible supports this concept. It is true that the Bible supports charity, encourages people to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and give money to the poor. This may seem like altruism, but remember altruism is irrational giving. Giving rationally, or as Rand puts it “benevolence,” is a good thing. There are people in the world who are not trying to be moochers or looters who need help, and helping them is a clear benefit to the collection of individuals we know as humanity. There is lots of evidence that God did not intend us to give irrationally. The Bible states clearly, “If anyone will not work, neither let him eat.” The Bible is full of examples about how men should not condone laziness. The Bible is a code of standards that each man is supposed to adapt in his own life and not force upon others. The Bible does not support moocher and does not create looters. If anyone uses the Bible to do so, they are not acting in accordance with the spirit of God.

But why believe in God at all? Rand stated that it is possible that God existed, but even if He did, it didn’t matter because men were the most important thing in men’s own lives. But I think Atlas Shrugged is a perfect contradiction to this idea. What was the greatest thing Dagny Taggart was looking for? She wanted to know and love the greatest producer that ever lived. She wanted to live in an idyllic society where men like James Taggart did not exist. She wanted to live where rationality ruled the minds of every man. But, she was forced to live away from that world for a time until she could understand the value of the utopia that she dreamed of. She had to learn how to give up her railroad in order to gain her railroad. I am looking for the motor that runs the universe; I want to know, and to love, the mind that created the world we live in. I think He gave us a way to find Him, but there are lessons we have to learn here on Earth. His existence is not the negation of goodness on Earth or the power of mankind, but rather He is the compliment to the power of men and the perfect representation of the goodness we see on Earth. That is the greatest value I could ever live for.

So, in a nut shell: I’m an objectivist, because I need some standard outside of Christianity that helps me understand the will of God so that when contradictions in my circle of Christian influences occur, I can make a decision. I am a Christian because life is more fulfilling when I understand why I am living it.

I am sure that this is incomplete, but after 2300 words, I am open for questions.

31 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your post got me thinking alot about my own theology in relation to yours. As I have mentioned to you, camparative religious studies is a personal favorite, and it rarely is this fun to compare christianity to christanity. Thank you.

First I think of your mention of a world of volition. We Mormons are huge on this idea and call it agency. This refers to the agency to choose between freedom and captivity.

I originally disagreed with your concept of "If there is a God, then the world He created must be a reflection of how He expects me to live." I disagree with "worldliness" (which the bible councils us to shy away from). But your objectivist arguments always to use definitions with a slight shift that throws me off...

Going back to the issue of the Volitional life, we are told in the sermon on the mount "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48) To me this sounds as if we are commanded to be like God, or in other words, to aspire to his standard of knowledge, which is the reason we are given commandments. Following those commandments helps us to gain God's standard of knowledge. But we must decide ourselves to follow the commandments, and this is why we are given the agency to choose between freedom and captivity.

Many people speak of commandments as limiting of freedom. We can take it back to your statement: "Every person has the capacity to not eat and drink." Many people think I am captive to my church because I do not smoke (among many other things). My counter is this: When I wake up in the morning could I smoke? The answer is yes, I have that capacity, I could chose to smoke or not to smoke. On the other hand, what if I were addicted to cigarettes? When I wake up in the morning my decision about whether or not to smoke would be far more limited. This is a miniscule example of why I firmly belive that God gave us commandments. Therefore there must be good and beautiful things in this world that we should aspire to.

This is where rationality comes in. It is said in Ephesians 4:11-15: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the Knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth can be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to decieve; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ."
According to this passage, certain people have, at times, been given the authority to speak the word of God for the "perfecting of the saints (or chruch of God)" (Hebrews Ch 1 is great for this too). The reason the word of God is spoken is so that God's children may have knowledge "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" which is that Godly standard of knowledge I spoke of earlier.

Does Rationality clash with this? I don't think so. God did give us reason and the Holy Ghost so that we could decide what is right and wrong, and we must use that, but Paul explains to us why God designates "apostles, prophets, etc" to have the authority to preach the word of God.

In verse 14 of the aforementioned passage it states that there exist people who try to decieve us, which supports rationality, but also mentions being "carried about by every wind of doctrine." People given the authority to preach (which, by the way, the bible is a heap of words from these folks) give solidity to doctrine, letting us know that doctrines were given specifically by inspiration of God and the Holy Ghost, and not just by smart people who came up with things based on well-reasoned notions.

I do not mean to say that men cannot or should not reason well. Anytime a doctrine or council is given by one who is in a position of authority, you must directly ask God in humble prayer. In James 1:5-6, it states "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally...but let him ask in faith, nothing wavering." we have the ability to pray, and God, has the ability to answer those prayers. Authority given from God makes the men who hold it more accountable for holding it, and places a greater responsiblity for them not to abuse it. I know that God can affirm the benevolence of a man's authority in our hearts just as easily as he can affirm the abomination of the abuse of another's authority. The reason this ties into rationality is that we have the mind to know what is right and wrong, but, refering again to James, God wants us to ask him, and, refering to Paul, we may know, and gain greater solidarity and direction through Prophets and apostles (reference to Bill and Ted soundtrack, "Two heads are better than one").

Point being: I don't know, but it was fun to consider a lot of interesting stuff. You post was enlightening, I hope mine is too.

11:03 PM  
Blogger Zach said...

Since we all seem to be getting a bit longwinded on this topic, I present an antithetical pondering, from a speech by Douglas Adams, as published in The Salmon Of Doubt:

"Where does the idea of God come from? Well, I think we have a very skewed point of view on an awful lot of things, but let’s try and see where our point of view comes from. Imagine early man. Early man is, like everything else, an evolved creature and he finds himself in a world that he’s begun to take a little charge of; he’s begun to be a tool-maker, a changer of his environment with the tools that he’s made and he makes tools, when he does, in order to make changes in his environment. To give an example of the way man operates compared to other animals, consider speciation, which, as we know, tends to occur when a small group of animals gets separated from the rest of the herd by some geological upheaval, population pressure, food shortage or whatever and finds itself in a new environment with maybe something different going on. Take a very simple example; maybe a bunch of animals suddenly finds itself in a place where the weather is rather colder. We know that in a few generations those genes which favour a thicker coat will have come to the fore and we’ll come and we’ll find that the animals have now got thicker coats. Early man, who’s a tool maker, doesn’t have to do this: he can inhabit an extraordinarily wide range of habitats on earth, from tundra to the Gobi Desert—he even manages to live in New York for heaven’s sake—and the reason is that when he arrives in a new environment he doesn’t have to wait for several generations; if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I’ll have it off him”. Tools have enabled us to think intentionally, to make things and to do things to create a world that fits us better. Now imagine an early man surveying his surroundings at the end of a happy day’s tool making. He looks around and he sees a world which pleases him mightily: behind him are mountains with caves in them-—mountains are great because you can go and hide in the caves and you are out of the rain and the bears can’t get you; in front of him there’s the forest—-it’s got nuts and berries and delicious food; there's a stream going by, which is full of water—-water’s delicious to drink, you can float your boats in it and do all sorts of stuff with it; here’s cousin Ug and he’s caught a mammoth-—mammoth’s are great, you can eat them, you can wear their coats, you can use their bones to create weapons to catch other mammoths. I mean this is a great world, it’s fantastic. But our early man has a moment to reflect and he thinks to himself, ‘well, this is an interesting world that I find myself in’ and then he asks himself a very treacherous question, a question which is totally meaningless and fallacious, but only comes about because of the nature of the sort of person he is, the sort of person he has evolved into and the sort of person who has thrived because he thinks this particular way. Man the maker looks at his world and says ‘So who made this then?’ Who made this? — you can see why it’s a treacherous question. Early man thinks, ‘Well, because there’s only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he’s probably male’. And so we have the idea of a god. Then, because when we make things we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself , ‘If he made it, what did he make it for?’ Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, ‘This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely’ and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.

"This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in—an interesting hole I find myself in—fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise."

Anything that happens, happens.

11:44 PM  
Blogger Jesi E. said...

Hehe... I was so afraid to put a longwinded post, because I was afraid no one would respond to it.

Andey, you are absolutely right to pick up on the notion that objectivism uses many definitions that are different from standard definitions. "Worldliness" I believe has more to do with the way that humans attempt to live in order to avoid the responsibilities that nature makes so obvious. There is a natural benefit to humans living to love each other. That does not mean that humans do this. Just because there are natural consequences to drinking, having premarital sex, stealing, and so on does not mean people do not do it. What if Biblical law said that all men should drink, have sex with as many women as they can, kill for fun, and take what they want? Sure, it might be fun for about 2 days, and then the entire world would collapse. God created a world where following His laws would be beneficial. Sometimes the benefits are not seen right away, but they are seen eventually. You imply this exact idea when you say that we are given the choice between freedom and captivity. Who would reasonably choose captivity?

So many people do believe that bad choices are actually the perfect representation of freedom. The idea of drinking every night, blowing off your responsibilities, and being sexually permissive seems like the perfect representation of a "free spirit." But this is a failure to think in the long term. The consequences of these actions will imprison you later. By making the choice not to do these things, you are making a free choice to enjoy freedom from the consequences of choosing those actions.

I'm not entirely certain what your last couple of paragraphs refer to, but I'm thinking that it is a contrasting point to egoism (correct me if I'm wrong) and that there are situations where Christian need to defer to the leadership of the church. My point concerning egoism is not to imply that people should not listen to each other. On the contrary! I firmly believe that the greatest benefit to living in society is that we have to opportunity to gain levels of knowledge that we would not have gained living alone. The church should be an atmosphere where Christians can speak with each other and learn from the lives of each other. It naturally makes sense that some men would act as leaders, directing the group as a whole to make decisions in accordance with the laws of the Bible. But, one must remember why they chose to join the church in the first place--it comes from an individual decision that the church reflects the idea that person holds dearest. If that individual believes, through his own personal examination, that the church is following a practice that is wrong, then I believe that man should not follow the church leadership. I do not think that men should cast aside teachings frivolously, but through prayer and study. This action should not be a regular occurance, but if one ignores that it is his personal responsibility to live the will of God, then that man sets himself up to be made a fool, or even worse, serve to undermine the legitamacy of the church or Christianity as a whole.

Zach, I have a test I need to take now, but I'm coming back to comment on your comment later. À bientôt!

6:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"First off, the truth is multifaceted." I disagree. "Truth," if it exists, is pure and unadulterated. It is that which is self evident and unchanging regardless of point of view. The sky does indeed have many colors depending on the point of view... but remember.. even the blue of the sky is an illusion.

"I absolutely believe that the Bible is the truth." Again, I disagree. If the bible is the truth, then it must be self evident. It is not. Its meaning changes depending on the interest and motivation of the reader. But it is not the minutiae of contradiction that robs the bible of its unadulterated self evidence; it's the fact that it, as an instrument of doctrine, cannot stand up to rational scrutiny. When DeCartes wrote, " I doubt, therefore, I am" he made the point that reality itself is not truth because it is a reflection of mere perception. Reality demands corroboration, but corroboration is impossible, because it, too, is a perception. The bible demands an assumption without the possibility of corroboration; in short, it assumes faith, which is, after all, the antithesis of ration.

Objectivism fails for the same reasons. In the basic operation of Rand's philosophy is an assumption that the human mind has in it the capacity to recognize reality; that corroboration by another's expressed perception is enough upon which to base a conclusion. I suggest the the human mind has not the bare capacity to imagine the daunting criteria for true existence. Even in those cases where our determinations of reality are based on internal and rational thought, the result is a perception, which, at its best, is unreliable in the scope of a search for "truth."

Objectivism and Christianity ultimately fail on the same grounds: Objectivism relies on fictional ration, and Christianity replaces ration with faith.

When we "check our premises" to the end of our capacity, it's simple to see that we know very little, but we've been told quite a bit. God is in our mind; is unavailable to corroboration; and is, therefore, nothing more than a reflection of how we (not God) think we should live. Those who manipulate our perceptions to the point of our believing that there is anything to God outside our own minds are those who seek to use our perceptions to solidify their place in power and wealth. To wit, organized religion is a fallacy and a tool of those seeking to consolidate power.

I am suggesting that anything that purports to reveal truth (whether a religion or metaphysical philosophy) is immediately susceptible to doubt, because "truth" is a fiction upon which we operate for no other reason but to maintain some semblance of order. Real truth is purely within the mind of the individual, and thus, like perception, changes from individual to individual.

If you need evidence of this ever-changing nature in a biblical sense, go look at a Catholic bible. The Catholics compiled the first bible (the one you read at protestant churches,) but reserved the right to edit it later on. The current Catholic bible contains new books, and omits some of the old. So, answer me this, which is the word of God, or does the word of God change? The rational answer is that neither is the word of God. But if that's the answer, how can the bible help in understanding the will of God?

We humans, like every other animal in the universe, meet the world armed only with our perceptions. We take in our senses, process them, and act accordingly. To argue otherwise is to argue that my dog knows when I leave the house each day, that I am going to work to earn money, to buy dog food. We, as humans, have just as much capacity to understand the will of God as my dog has of understanding my frustration with my boss.

In the end, if being God means defining reality, then I am God. Therefore, to understand the will of God is to understand my own will. So, when I hear the question, "What's the point?" I answer, "Whatever you want it to be." Now, I think I'll step outside and trace dollar signs in the sky...

7:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sonofearl said:"I for one don't want to live simply to exist. What’s the point in that? The point you’re making is there is no point. The point I am making is if there is no point why are you even debating it?"

The point I'm trying to make is that we, as intelligent beings living in a world of perception have the luxury of deciding for ourselves what the point is. Searching for external truth is really just a search for our own "point."

Sonofearl said: "My last point is the Bible's Truth. Hegel you said for it to be true it must be self-evident. This is true with any other theory but Religious ones."

Why should religious truths be held to any different standard than any other truth? Is it because of their foundation in faith? If a religious faith is not held to the same standard as any other truth, then the Buddhists, Muslims, Zoastrians, and whatever you call followers of Greek gods have just as much legitimacy as Christians, and yet, I hear no one here espousing the grandeur of Zeus.

Sonofearl said: "But that is to get ahead of the issue because you have to believe first, and that is not the case here."

First, this statement, I think, most succinctly points out the fallacy of blind faith. In order to have faith, you must presuppose, or assume, the existence of God. Assumptions are the exact opposite of objective reason.

Second, my personal philosophy and own blind belief in God are irrelevant to the conversation. The whole point is that whatever faith I do have is my own, and not to be determined by any organized institution of faith. Such organizations are designed specifically shape one's faith into meeting the interests of someone else. We've all been taught our entire lives that falling in line on Sunday morning is the will of God. In my mind, anyone else having an interest in my relationship with God is directly out of step with what I have come to believe in my personal search for God.

Sonofearl said: "I don’t believe Ration will ever prove God's existence, but I also think it will never prove it doesn't exist either. And the fact that neither science nor ration has proved Christianity pure fiction is to me a major compelling argument for its existence."

It is a fallacy of logic that any negative may be proven. Negatives require a lack of evidence; for example: Prove to me that aliens do not exist. If you cannot do so, does that mean the opposite is true? Another example more to the point: Prove to me that there is no power behind Bhudda, Allah, Vishnu and the rest? If you cannot do so, then how can Christianity be the only route to salvation?

Sonofearl said: "I will leave you with this, if God doesn't exist I will never know it, cause I'll be dead and I won't care. If he does it exist you will know it and you will care. If you’re a rational person the odds look better for me."

Reason does not base it's conclusions on odds, and neither does faith. If I remember my lessons, Jesus isn't fire insurance. Faith in Christ does not begin or end in fear of the alternative. If you are right, and we are expected to live our lives by a standard invented by someone with an interest in consolidating power, then I'll burn in Hell knowing I've not sold my soul to the most popular team for the sake of playing the odds. If I'm right, then you've lived your life in fear of nothing. One is a path of certainty based on a lifelong struggle to come to terms with God, the world, and one individuals place in it. The other is a roll of the dice, with a shout of "C'mon, Jesus!" and the hope of not making a mistake in offending Shiva. But, hey, good luck with that...

7:48 AM  
Blogger Jesi E. said...

Oh my good Lord of mercy! Maybe I should compile these comments and make a book.

Zach --- I love your quote. I’ve had so many people question how anyone could possibly look at the world and be an atheist. I have tried repeatedly to explain this notion (I try to understand other belief systems, even if they are not my personal belief systems), but I should keep this quote in mind for future reference. It’s amusing and communicates how easy it would be for humans to just create a notion of God without there being any evidence for it.

But I will still say, that despite the logical possibility of men creating the idea of God based off their egoistic tendencies, I think it is equally logical to believe in the possibility that a God created a world where humans existed in His image and were given a way to find him. You have just as little evidence that that is how men created the concept of “God” as I have evidence that God revealed Himself to all the people of the Earth and left evidence of His presence. Your story is a nice little parable of atheism, but it is just that: a fiction to make a religious concept graspable.

I will give atheism the credibility that it is possible. However, I do not believe that the history of men who claim to have seen supernatural events, spoken with God, or experienced any other religious phenomenon were either deceiving themselves or being deceived by someone else. Just in pure numbers of these events, I’m inclined to believe at least a few of them are true. Yes, anything that happens, ultimately happens, but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen for a reason.

Hegel --- I find myself disagreeing with many things that you state, but I will admit that upon reading your last sentence, I broke into an unadulterated mirthful laugh. Then I stopped, drank my chocolate milk, and began my response.

In order to address the concept of truth being multifaceted, I must first determine that truth exists. It is true that everything humans believe is a perception. But just because it is perceived doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Some have theorized that perception is flawed and therefore every perception cannot be trusted. However, under that premise, even the perception that perception is not true is also not true. Therefore, by their definition of perception being untrue, perception is true. Every perception that one made prior to realizing perception is untrue has to be doubted, ultimately lending to the idea that the perception that perception is untrue is also untrue. Therefore, at least some perceptions must be true. This may be the most convoluted paragraph I’ve ever written. Regardless, it’s important to the rest of the debate. There must be truth, because it’s impossible for every perception to be wrong. So, the trick is to discover what perceptions are true.

The idea that the truth is multifaceted does not me that it is not pure and unadulterated. “The Truth” includes everything that is true. It addresses everything from the chemical composition of my fingernail polish to the nature of God (if God exists). The truth is unchanging, but two people can see two parts of the truth. They may think they are seeing different things, but they are actually seeing two parts of the same thing. That does not mean that one of those parts is untrue, but it would be untrue to believe that one of those parts is the only truth.

Your second paragraph is difficult to argue against, really because you’re arguing two different ideas: 1) Truth must be self evident, and 2) Nothing that is seen can be truth, because everything that is seen is manipulated by perception. I’ll argue each point separately.

First, the truth is simply that which exists. We’re sort of delving into the issue of, “If a tree fell in a forest, and nobody hears it, does it make a noise?” If something cannot be observed, and therefore corroborated, does it really exist? Is existence only that which is perceived? Absolutely not. There are many things that for centuries humans were inable to perceive, but that does not mean they didn’t exist. It just means humans couldn’t see them. For example, the atom. And the atom still has properties that we cannot observe, but that does not change the fact that it exists. When it comes to God, many believe that there is evidence of His existence, but it’s a difficult fact to corroborate. But, just because we cannot currently corroborate it does not mean we will never be able to. What a boring world it would be if we believed that everything that exists we must be able to see at this moment. There is so much more we have left to discover.

We believe in some things that we cannot understand because it helps make our lives happier. Though we may not have evidence for these ideas from a scientific perspective, we still have the hope that everything will one day be made clear and we will be proven to have believed in the right idea. Many scientists for centuries believed that the Earth revolved around the Sun, but many were uncertain how to prove it. Now they are vindicated. Now humans live by the changing world philosophy that doesn’t see humans as the center of the universe. It provides for an extraordinary amount of religious freedom.

When I say that the Bible is the truth, I mean that the Bible communicates what the truth is. Because individual sentences cannot fully communicate the entirety of the truth, people can manipulate those sentences to their advantage. That does not, however, change the original truth of the statements. It makes the interpreter the liar (or merely confused), not the sentence. Returning to astronomy (I believe astronomy is synonymous with religion in many ways because of how difficult it is for humans to misunderstand the universe. However, just because it’s difficult to understand, does not mean it is impossible to understand.) Copernicus was the first man who successfully put forth the notion that we lived in a heliocentric universe. Despite the validity of his interpretation of the evidence with regard to the sun, he was still off when in came to the movement of the planets. It was Kepler that fixed that problem. But just because Copernicus was wrong about the planets didn’t make the entirety of the heliocentric system wrong. And just because one person misinterprets the evidence in the Bible does not mean that the Bible is wrong. It may seem impossible to interpret something without corrupting it with the fallibility of perception, but there is at least one perception that is true. That is the hope of every Christian: that through correct interpretation of the Bible we can find the truth. I’ll even allow that perhaps that one correct perception is that the Bible is a bunch of bullshit. ::shrugs:: I’m not inclined in that direction, though.

Of course, I ask that you return to my comments about perception to argue against the second point.

I’m a pseudo Eastern Orthodox, and in that religion the entire Bible is included (the Bible as put forth by the first century church, including those extra books your speak of). Some churches have dropped some of the books not because they believed those books were lies, but because they believed those books did not have any further revelation. Some do believe they are lies. ::shrugs:: It is a belief, a perception. But, as I stated before, there has to be one correct perception. The word of God does not change, but perhaps how it applies to a changing world does. I believe that God speaks through many elements. I believe every book of the Bible is communicates truth, though it does not communicate the entire truth. The Bible helps us understand the will of God because it communicates the most important truths: God created the world, man somehow became separated from God, God sent a sacrifice to provide atonement for the separation, and there is a hopeful future in store for everyone who believes in God and his sacrifice. But as people change, I think God’s expectations for us change as well.

God does not define reality. If God exists, then He is a part of reality. He is also living, and therefore changes reality. But I am also a part of reality and I am also capable of changing reality, but I certainly do not define reality. If my boss fires me tomorrow, no attempt to make my reality change to mean that I am still working would happen. If God attempted to change the reality that I will sometimes disagree with His will by making me agree entirely with His will would not change the reality that the person that exists now disagrees with Him on occasion. He would simply eliminate that person and put someone else in my place. One can change one reality to a different reality, but the presence of a new reality does not make the fact that the old reality existed unreal.

I theory, it’s reasonable to believe one can define their own reality. But in practice, reality is a force that acts on every living thing. “The point” is to determine how best to live in the framework of reality. So, what is the point? That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

I’ll return later.

12:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok.. I'll make one last response, because this is taking up way too much space, then I'll leave the discussion up to the rest of you...

"I broke into an unadulterated mirthful laugh."

I am here to serve...

"There must be truth, because it’s impossible for every perception to be wrong."

The trick is learning to tell the difference... the tool is reason.

"We believe in some things that we cannot understand because it helps make our lives happier."

Exactly! We choose to believe in many things in the same way we accept many things as truth, but the choice is our own to make. My choices and your choices can be different without either of us being damned to hell, regardless of what Christianity or the Church has to say about it. There's the difference between Christianity and Objectivism in bold: Christianity tries to give you the answer; objective reason asks the questions to challenge the assumptions that religion requires. Can you make the assumptions and ignore the questions without forsaking one of the philosophies? It seems to me that if you ask the questions and somehow still arrive at the same conclusions as you did by making the assumptions, then you've proven the existence of God, and we can all just stop looking. But, if questions are unanswered, then religion must not have the answers, and religion only supplies a means by which we can exercise our choices in framing our own reality.

"I’ll even allow that perhaps that one correct perception is that the Bible is a bunch of bullshit. ::shrugs:: I’m not inclined in that direction, though."

Again, correct. But recognize that you are choosing your inclination. Then, ask yourself why you are choosing so...

I'll leave you with a short quote from Kant. I won't edit his sexism, because it's just sooo much fun.

Enjoy:

Königsberg in Prussia, 30th September, 1784.
"Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage s man's inability to make use of his understanding without direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude! "Have courage to use your own reason!"- that is the motto of enlightenment.
Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why so great a portion of mankind, after nature has long since discharged them from external direction (naturaliter maiorennes), nevertheless remains under lifelong tutelage, and why it is so easy for others to set themselves up as their guardians. It is so easy not to be of age. If I have a book which understands for me, a pastor who has a conscience for me, a physician who decides my diet, and so forth, I need not trouble myself. I need not think, if I can only pay - others will easily undertake the irksome work for me.
That the step to competence is held to be very dangerous by the far greater portion of mankind (and by the entire fair sex) - quite apart from its being arduous is seen to by those guardians who have so kindly assumed superintendence over them. After the guardians have first made their domestic cattle dumb and have made sure that these placid creatures will not dare take a single step without the harness of the cart to which they are tethered, the guardians then show them the danger which threatens if they try to go alone. Actually, however, this danger is not so great, for by falling a few times they would finally learn to walk alone. But an example of this failure makes them timid and ordinarily frightens them away from all further trials."

2:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Months ago I caught the final scene in a second-rate movie depicting John's Revelations. A man and a woman are fleeing, with a horseman in pursuit; they rider draws near, and the scene blanks out to complete darkness. The woman becomes visible, standing in the darkness, lit only by a faint light masked in the distance by an expanse of dark fog. The women is in awe of her predicament. Her daughter, who was raptured earlier in the movie (I assume) appears next to her. The daughter explains that this is hell, and the faint light in the distance is heaven. The daughter looks up at her mother, with the most dire look of compassionate concern. She calmly tells her mother that all she must do to be in the presence of God forever, is to plainly state that she loves God. The older woman looks around in contemplation, her gaze coming to rest on her loved child. "I can't" she states with evident emotions I can't seem to describe. There is more calm pleading, and the woman refuses. Suddenly they are gone, and she is alone, and all is dark.

That is what I remember. The woman refused to betray herself in the face of eternity. Her senses and perception and rational judgment had led her to believe that God did not exist, and that if he did, that he was a "deceiver."

I wondered then, and since, about this situation. What if my rational judgment, and my senses fail to lead me to the truth about my own existence and I am placed on that abyssal plain with a question posed before me. Shall I deny a God that I must now see as vile because he has created me according to a standard, and left me incapable of meeting it. That I should fall on my knees and writhe like a snake for an irrational mercy from an irrational God. Might I only say those very simple words, a small betrayal to purchase an eternity. I struggled with this. I say no. I refuse. Before an irrational God my only guarantee, if but only for a moment, is in myself. I will not willingly give that which is all I have in exchange for the uncertainty of absolute chaos.

I am now sure that this question does not matter. Nothing can be gained or lost before an irrational God by an act of will I put forth. For his reaction is unknowable, his desire unfathomable. Such is an infinitely hopeless venture of which there truly is "no point" regarding anything.

However, I know there is a point at this moment and time. The "Cult of Moral Relativity" has appeared once again. "Everything is unknowable" they shout...ignoring what they know; that they have shouted, and have found purpose in the action. This is irony embodied in man. The utterance of their words devour the idea behind them.

I exist. I am. I know that I am because I am aware that I am. This self-evident truth is the basis of our lives. How could I begin to describe how a man would live who was not certainly aware that he exists? Would it be possible for such a man to utter a breath? To propel himself? To control his muscles? To type on a keyboard? He is not an animal preprogrammed for action. Consider the vast meaning of the phrase "I am" and what it entails. This axiom is the basis for an objective reality, and existence with form, of which I have position to begin to judge it. A basis beyond mere perception; a basis of certain awareness.

6:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as heaven or hell. There is only this life as far as we know. Plus the bible isn't truth, it was written by men, and has been altered and changed to fit the societies of ancient that wrote it. Read some Spinoza. It was written to create an order to control society (which it has been highly effective as evidenced by everyone's undying conviction that it is the "word" of god - never mind that it's a work of literature riddled with contradictions). Nevertheless, you cannot be objectivist and not be an atheist. Religion is based off of faith and faith is beyond and out side of rationality. I mean seriously.... what, god came down and miraculously made a woman pregnant and she gave birth to god? that's pretty irrational. you can believe it or not, but don't call it rational. i mean, that's highly contradictary...A is not A in this case. Hence Rand's rejection of god and religion.

Give up trying to reconcile to opposite modes of thinking. Not everything has be analysed or looked at through rationality (not everythign is rational...even the most rational thing - Math - can be irrational - think square root of negative 1) or irrationality. Both are limited. Our universe is far more complicated than any current way of thinking will alow us to see, so recognize that we know nothing.

7:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I realize that replying is useless since the one that needs to hear it most is not returning."

With all due respect, young padawan, you do not know what I "need" to hear. You have no idea who I am, or what my conclusions in faith have been. Go back and read carefully. I have never said that I do not have faith. What I have said is that my conclusions on God cannot be supported by reason, and neither can yours, admittedly.

That's where the conversation began. We started out on a discussion regarding whether an individual can hold faith and reason in equal regard. My argument is this: religion requires faith; reason requires proof; reason does not require faith; and religion does not require proof. The two concepts are in direct opposition at their most basic levels. If an individual holds one of these two concepts to be absolute truth, then they must deny the other.

Furthermore, when someone wants to use their own personal experiences as proof of faith, then they fail to recognize the lack of forensic value of those experiences for anyone else. Goose-bumps are not evidence of reality, and a teary-eyed walk to the baptism while the pastor sings "Just as I Am" is not evidence of the existence of God. What may be proof of faith for you may not be enough for anyone else; that's the nature of reason, and the part perception plays in it.

"I know there is a God, Hegel what do you know?"

I know I am. I know I have arrived at my conclusions by independent thought and struggle. I know that no matter how many people damn me to hell for my own conclusions, they are irrelevant to my journey, including you.

The reason you feel like you're arguing with jelly is because you have nothing to stand on that's your own. You repeat the party line and march. Which is fine, if that's what you want, but you tread into dangerous territory when you judge what you do not know.

"...then begin to research what its all about. The other religions will faid quickly, I know i have done this extensively..."

What makes you think that I have not done the same? Isn't it likely that I have done everything you have done, and still arrived at a different conclusion? What about the millions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Animists who have done the same extensive research as you, and have some away with different views? Are they all just wrong and damned to hell, while Earl,Jr., the enlightened, has solved the mysteries of the universe through research premised on the notion of God's very existence? I don't think that's possible, at least not in any universe I care to imagine.

"I know you will hate me when i say this, but I will pray that someday you can grasp faith."

Why would I hate someone for bestowing on me their faith? Would you hate a witch for praying to the winds to guide you? By all means, pray for me; I need all the help I can get. I'll pray for you, too, but I think we might be dialing different numbers.

I'll tell my dog you send your regards, but I doubt there's a chance in hell he'll infer what you mean.

Remember, "I AM" is the name of God according to Moses. Go ahead, look it up.

7:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hegel.... I think i like the way you think...

9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Franky, if I didn't have puke breath, I'd kiss you.

9:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

---Can Objectivism and Christianity coexist...can they support each other without contradiction?

"I am". Because I am aware that "I am" I know that I have not always been; thus I did not exist and at one point I became existent. Rationality based on the primal axiom "I am" would lead me to believe that I cannot will myself into existence because something that does not exist cannot will.

Reason leads me to believe that since I was created, and this cause was outside of myself, that this cause is greater than myself. (a law of chemistry/physics also) Since the primary cause of "I am" is greater than "I am" reasonably there is no way to abstractly determine that cause; that knowledge is not within me.

Reasonably I must believe that the universe around me, reality, also has a cause that is beyond it. The nature of this universe, compared with our best collected efforts, our scientific laws point to this clearly. I cannot create the universe, thus the universe's cause is also beyond me. Thus I have no ability to abstractly determine this cause. Since these causes are greater than we are, greater than everything that we know or are aware of, it would seem that it would be impossible to discover these causes from looking within ourselves, or by looking within the universe. The knowledge of either's creator will not be present, we will be incapable of knowing the cause simply from the lesser products of the cause, nor could we as humans, come to a mental understanding of that which is greater than own capacity to understand.

The only knowledge we may have of this creator is that knowledge which might be purposefully imparted to us by this "Great Cause" if it has the nature, the capacity or will to do so. This revelation to us would require diffusion and simplification to the degree that we would be capable of comprehending it...thus being only a "portrait of God".

This knowledge of god could be imparted in existence itself, that "god's" existence would be self-evident to us in our examination of the universe. We have not yet found self-evidence of god in our examination of the universe. We cannot be sure that if such evidence exists, that our minds would be capable of understanding it, and relating it to god.

The claim of god's direct and purposeful revelation to us in the form of words has existed as long as our history dates; that the "cause" has chosen to reveal to us a "portrait of god" in the form of communication to man, and it's transfer to written or oral language. This purposeful transmission must be meant for a reason, and meant that we can comprehend it. Rationally I can surmise self-evidence of god in such words only if those words revealed truths that were unknowable to those that received them...and that rational men might later be capable of determining the truth of those words. Furthermore it be necessary for self-evident truths to be revealed at the time of the transmission of the "portrait of god" lest men be forced to accept unproven concepts with no reason for doing so; demanding the irrational of rationally created men, an irrational god this would make. Ms.Black&White and I have both touched on the concept of an "irrational god" and what that mean to us. These self-evident truths might come in the form of miracles or acts that defy probability and act in consistency to said transmission.

If those "supposed truths" could not be later verified by future men, and no self-evident miracles are present to make reasonable cause for belief in the their unverified truth, then for future men this transmission would require faith; unreasonable faith. In this case, either that godly transmission was not meant for present man to rationally believe and thus of no importance, was meant to require unrational faith, or only was meant for those who came before us.

So present man must look at the text of these so-called "portraits" and determine the truth of the words or observe self-evident miracles or signs in the sky; thus how these words correspond to the universe that was unknown to the receivers of the revelation. I have seen no self-evident miracles, leaving only the words are their consistency. I have examined the Koran, the Baghavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the Holy Bible (as well as apocryphal books) and many lesser known works. Only the Holy Bible seems capable of fitting these requirements. Yet I am not persuaded to the point of rational belief in this "portrait", and I have not stopped looking.

Others might say that their are truths outside of the bible, that can lead men to it's innate truth; the willful act of to convey this reason upon me, interaction with the holy spirit ect. However I have no experienced a self-evident communication with god, and I cannot see that he has implanted knowledge within me to this end. According to the Bible the Holy Spirit acts within those who have already accepted this "portrait" in belief and action; since I have yet to do so, this does not apply.

I refuse to bridge the gaps of reason necessary to facilitate belief in the Bible's truths; I refuse to act on blind faith. Blind faith is the act of believing in something that you have no reason to believe in; I do not accept that a rational god would require this. The faith spoken of in the bible, if the bible is truth or even image of truth, must be synonymous with reason and expectation. If you have accepted the bible as truth about god, then there are things that you can reasonably expect to occur based on this truth; this must be the faith the bible speaks of, if indeed the bible is truth. Yet, once again, one must gain reasonable belief in the truth of the bible before one can rationally exhibit "faith." Nor can I pray to god and ask for him a special revelation to me of his truth. Carrying out an act that I have no reason to believe in would require blind faith; thus prayer is not an alternative.

I cannot yet accept the bible as a true "portrait of god." If god is rational, and I pursue rationality, and god requires that we accept his portrait in order to live beyond this world, and if he would prefer for all of us to do so, then I believe I will discover the truth of the bible eventually. It would be an unfortunate philosophical question if I fail to live long enough to do so.

***I must then ask you Ms.B&W...are the words of the bible, and truths that it supposes...are they sufficient to make the bible's truth evident to you without a trial period of blind faith? Or have there been sufficient self-evident miracles in your life?****

---Of my comments on "Heaven" and "Hell" in the post which is the basis for this discussion...

My original point was to show an additional fault in Rand's thinking beyond what the blog's author had already stated. If indeed Rand truly believed that the "Heaven and Hell" of the bible were the proverbial (or cereal) treasure at the end of the rainbow and not treasure because of the rainbow....the focal point on which here arch-nemesis altruism was based...she spent scant time attacking the concept. One attack's his enemies where he is most vulnerable. If Rand had put sufficient study into the concept because of how focal she thought it was...perhaps she would have came to an alternate conclusion about the theological concepts of "heaven and hell". By publishing a paper or a book showing the real intent of the author's of the bible regarding "heaven and hell" she could have attempted to turn Christians away from the focal point of altruism without first attempting to turn them from religion. Which would be easier? Rand even said in one of her speeches that the things Jesus taught weren't so bad in and of themselves. She probably could have accepted destroying altruism without destroying religion, in her lifetime, if such an offer was made. Her failure was both of biblical meaning and of strategy.

Based on my examination of the bible I do not believe that it's authors were portraying these two rewards as Ayn Rand thought. I agree with Ms. B&W on her view of heaven and hell; that contextually the bible does not tell men to believe for the sole purpose of these rewards. Heaven and hell are the result of living as one should, given that either one chooses to ignore the self-evidence of the bible's truths, or to accept them. In between lies the previously mentioned unfortunate philosophical question. However Rand saw a world of Christians who believed that heaven and hell were the reward for irrational self-sacrifice. If the bible is true, and a rational god bestows on man the rational ability to discern this truth, and god intends that men should find this truth, and those who claim to accept the truth of the bible in fact believe something totally foreign to the truth of the bible, then you are left with a world of unbelieving and irrational men. This is a contradiction. How can a world of rationally made men, meant to discover such a grand rational truth by a rational god fail to do so? It would be pointless for god to attempt such a revelation to man and with such a small percentage of men discovering the actual truth of the bible it would seem that man by nature would be irrational or prone to choosing irrationality (wouldn't that mean the same?). Perhaps Rand came to a similar conclusion...the state of supposed bible believers being as they were (are)...the bible could not be truth. If the bible is not truth...there is no holy spirit guiding Christians...there is no god answering their prayers...there is no rational correspondence between the bible and reality that makes sense to men, and thus the only thing that could hold men to such belief was the psychological reward of heaven or hell. If this is not what the authors intended for the meaning of "heaven" and "hell" then surely that is what it had come to mean. Or perhaps she simply misread the bible, took ideas out of context, and or was incapable of filtering her bias and believed that her concept of heaven and hell were the bible's concept.

---Here is an interesting idea. God exists. Men do not exist. God creates men. Men exist forever in a state of good or a state of horrible based on a trial period. Does this sound like justice? You would expect justice from a rational god. Yet some men are created only that they might exist forever in anguish. A choice exists in the matter...but a bad choice seems to render rather INFINITE and ETERNAL bad consequences. Perhaps "Hell" is not eternal existence in a state of separation from god, and thus a state of misery. Perhaps it is rather nonexistence. Nonexistence would truly be separation from god. It would seem more just that if one failed to live as one should, that one should rather be unlived. A trial period to see if you should exist at all. Just a thought.

--- To Hegel
I believe it's "Great I AM". Which makes alot of sense really.

---Related Quotes----
"Yes you in the back."
"Umm..I was a devout Catholic...why am I in hell?"
"Uhh..yes...let me see....eh...Mormon was the correct answer. Better luck next time."
(South Park)

"God creates dinosaurs. God kills dinosaurs. God creates man. Man kills god. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man."
(Jurassic Park)

6:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hegel - you're slipping in your old age. The Catholics used the Latin Vulcan to translate to English done by Tyndale (or Tysdale - I'm aging also)in 1526 - the Hebrew Vulcan was used by King James when he commissioned the translation is 1604. This creates disparities from the get go. Also, The 4-letter name of God, or YHVH, Yod Heh Vav Heh. The Jews never pronounced this word, calling it the "Unpronouncable Name of God," and it's real pronunciation can only be guessed at and approximated.

Zoastrians - The oldest continually practiced religion on the face of the Earth, and also a favorite of mine when discussing different religions. Their soul cleansing is gruesome. As we discussed - didn't the Hebrews "borrow" the Heaven and Hell concept from the Zoastrians.

We all know King James edited the Bible. So, anyone that claims to have read the entire Bible is either able to read ancient Hebrew, or purchased "The Hypocrapha" and pieced it all together. A loose modern story of one of the books in "The Hypocrapha" is the movie Pulp Fiction.

So is it the Bible isn't true, or that Humanity has tainted the pure scripture?

Seeing Earl's post I'm taken back to my childhood when my male biological participant (I refuse to call him Father') was in Seminary. The average person would find it surprising the number of times these "men of God" went to physically fighting over minute differences in belief. Equally disappointing is the number of times when one opines differently, they attack the person instead of offering different information. I wonder how many souls were lost because of the tactics chosen similar to Earl's. What if Hegel was on the fence with his faith? Suppose Hegel was torn between Christianity and Satanism - what kind of example was set by Earl? Isn't the role of Christians to give witness to the world? It seems according to Earl, we should just leave this whole business of religous husbandry to the good burghers of Earl and Oklahoma. How dare Hegel imply the Earl's should sully his milky digits in discussion with the rest of the Scrod, Personally, I believe that encouraging participation beats isolationism 9 kicks out of 10.

On the original topic, I'm with Hegel. Without people there is no God. Without God there are no people. Understand why you've made your choice and on what you've based your choice. As Hegel said, "Even the blue of the sky is an illusion."

2:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Correction - It's "Apocrypha" not Hypocrapha - sorry

5:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vulcan = Vulgate?

7:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am embressed with everyone's debate here. Its hard to keep everything above the belt when it means so much, but if you can keep things civil things get very interesting as displayed here. Nice job everyone.

I am not sure what I believe but I think as sonofearl said that its an evolving concept to everyone. Whether that is an evolving understanding of God, or evolving understanding of the world around you.

p.s. it is amusing that the Christian has brought up evolution:)

2:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem with institutional christianity is that not only is it an institution, but it's an institution based on the false concept of blind faith.

When religion becomes institutionalized the focus becomes not on god but on the building, the baseless customs, the committees, the social dinners, ect. Non-christians and look at the institutionalized church and see the hypocracy and insincerity, and attribute it to the religion itself.

Secondly institutionalized christianity relies on the false tenent of blind-faith. Blind-faith literally is believing in something without any reason to do so. How can one communicate the true essence of christianity to others based on this principle? How can one understand one's own beliefs if there exists no rhyme or reason to them? Blind-faith christianity exists upon a self-justifying system of circular logic that makes its "truth" unproveable and undeniable.

It is impossible to convince someone that relies on blind-faith of anything; their beliefs have no roots to challenge.

It should not be believed, that rational individuals who attempt to use logic to determine the truth of a matter, are incapable of coming to a different belief based on discussion with others. This is the nature of rationality.

The idea that one should pursue discussion in order to make own's beliefs stronger and more impervious to self-analysis is ridiculous. The only value in discussions of this sort is self-analysis and advancement of personal knowledge and these cannot be obtained if one comes to the table with a belief system based on blind-faith, or if one has no intention of self-analysis, only the intended exercise of moral-relavistic intellectual masterbation.

I am not attributing these characteristics to anyone here. Since the discussion has turned to the nature of discussion, so have I.

On the case of science as faith...when you say faith I must assume you mean blind faith. Since faith in and of itself is expectation that something should happen based on consistant actions of the past. (I have faith that if I drop this pen, that it will fall to the ground.)

I have never been to the moon, operated underwater sonar, or split the atom. Yet I have a limited reason to believe in the general accuracy of what exists in scientific textbooks. The knowledge of generations is passed on under the scrutiny of each generation, and passed from researcher to researcher, institution to institution until it reaches my textbook. This process of analysis lends itself to at least limited accuracy; blind-faith is having no reason to believe something and I have limited reason to believe the textbooks. As MsB&W has said, although we benefit from others and the information that they have obtained, it is up to us to analyze the information with our own rational judgement.

Good night.

10:04 PM  
Blogger Peter Raffensperger said...

In response to the original blog post:

Thank you for that. It was very insightful and I agree with what I understood.

I think that God wants us to think for ourselves, not just accept a canned religon.

Rock on,
Peter
www.trollyherdsman.blogspot.com

9:33 PM  
Blogger Zach said...

Drive by comment:

"Math - can be irrational - think square root of negative"

the "irrational" or "imaginary" sqrt(-1) isn't irrational (or imaginary) in the logical sense. In math an irrational number is any real number that is not a rational number, i.e., one that cannot be written as a ratio of two integers, i.e., it is not of the form a/b.

But trust me with out man knowing how to work logically with the sqrt(-1) we'd be 50 to 75 years behind with our technology.

I agree with and love the post black and white girl; I wish the girls I met day to day had your capacity to think.

6:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally disagree with your post and I am afraid you are incorrect with your assertion regarding Objectivism.

Ayn Rand (who was an escapee of Soviet Russia) opposed religion because it preached the morality of self-sacrifice or altruism which is what the communists preached.

As opposed to the communists who said that people should give their lives to the will of the state, religions (such as Christianity and Islam) state that in order for people to attain salvation, they must give their lives to God.

As a former Christian now turned atheist, I concluded Rand was right.

If you want to call yourself a Christian Libertarian that is one thing since libertarianism draws from religious-oriented philosophers (such as John Locke and Lord Acton).

However, I would suggest you and others no longer call yourself an Objectivist since it is a philosophy based on reason and rational self-interst. Not faith.

11:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I came accross this on google and laughed out loud. The reason why I left objectivism is because it absolutely 100% antithetical to Christianity.

Christianity states our human nature is fundamentally flawed. Objectivism builds a philosophy around our human nature as if it was good.

Hit me up on facebook if you can: george.singer@yale.edu

5:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(Posted by Aden)
Conceptions and misconceptions are one of the most powerful influences of this world. They've shown themselves to me reflected across both the Bible(misconceptions of it's own "truth" leading to the type of "christianity" of the church , around Jesi, that she felt was different from her own belief in christianity, or for those of the other side, who believe Jesi is misconcieving) and Atlas Shrugged(when Ayn Rand expresses sarcasm, it is sometimes hard to tell. one such case, which I concieve as truth, is the idea that the antagonist in Atlas Shrugged were "anti greed". Personally(as is all this), I believe this was sarcasm displayed only to be understood by those thinking in the positions of the antagonists of Atlas Shrugged. It was not intended for the readers to actually believe Galt, Dagny, and the rest were greedy, rather it was another word which is one of the only words able to describe this. In most of the vocabularies of the world, it is hard to find multiple meanings or different subjects when it comes to core words. I interperet Greed as a self-indulgence, but not as selfishness entirely. Selfishness is cut into 2 meanings for me, Self-Indulgence, which is as said, Greed's synonymous meaning to me, and the form of selfishness that is able to be practiced by a Christian without commiting the sin of greed. This selfishness is what I call Self-improvement and care. There are only 2 evils on this ground, Selfishness in the form of Greed and self indulgence, and Selflessness without reason(as gald stated). Giving to reward the worthy, or those that will make use of such reward, or living for one's improvement are part of my philosophy, and my grounds of dealing with people as an Objectivist Christian.

On to idea of a loan, which also has recieved misconceptions. There is the type of loaning which is reasonless, and sometimes only for the sake of a title rather than for the actual purpose of giving, and a loan that is supported by the appraisal of the recipient's worth. Technically, the latter is not a loan, but is only called such as part of our "misconceptions" in the world today(as I said before).
If I were to go on referring to this with supposed minimal misconceptions(as I will now), I would refer to the latter of these two loans as the 'Fake Loan'. The 'Real Loan' is an unreasonable act in my mind and my vision of reality, and it's existance is contradictory to itself, making a 'Real Loan' impossible, thus turning the word 'loan' into a dud in vocabulary and language. The 'Fake Loan' is not truly an act of benevolence, it is rather a payment that has a cause unseen by most men(as in not physical labor for physical currency, but rather your influence[not like an Atlas Shrugged's antagonist's definition of influence, another dud in language when used in that sense], your impressions. If you make one think you are worthy of admiration, that admiration can be payed. When one does not see the worthiness that prompted the admiration, they call it a loan. These admirations come in the form of currency on this Earth.

I ramble, that I admit is what this string of text appears to me, but it also appears as a work of my complete effort. For in that sense, every statement on this page is part of an incompleted summary of a philosophy, a ramble of sorts. I would need the span of my own lifetime to lay the foundations of the philosophy and beliefs I have, that which many of you understand. All I can do is attempt to bridge the gap between the entirity of my time spent on this, compared to the marginal minutes I spend on describing it now, reducing as much possibility for misconceptions as I go.

Points taken, I consider myself a fusion of Ayn Rand's beliefs and The beliefs of the Bible, with as few misconceptions as I allowed(though I can not say whether or not I am concieving it correctly in the first place, but that action and denial of which is like a claim to helplessness. As Galt would know it, "Who Is John Galt?", if only in soul, not in the same word structure). The only problem is, that I, like most every man alive, was unable to absorb both the philosophy of Ayn Rand, with the religion to which the Bible professes, at the same time. I was not able to hear one without hearing the other, if only partially, first. Thus I can not claim to be unbiased, as I have no evidence to it. So I will continue to say this, with full knowledge that it can be refused by any of you, that THE Christianity IS a definer of Objectivism. THE Christianity is the one that I hold as my belief, and as possibly shared by people like Jesi. The others out there(the average church, to the world's view of them) are not, and rather are a result of a string of misconceptions. These misconceptions are what make it possible for a rational being to make an irrational choice, from not knowing the full meaning of what they hear(misconcieving defined), and these choices have led to the "christian" faith that is present around me and Jesi.

I may sound like I am repeating myself, and I am, if only partially. I am defining something via branches. It is like defining literature as a whole, then defining english literature, then defining english poetry as a sector of english literature, until I get unto the point that I have my reader understanding(concieving truly) what I say. This process could go on down to the letters, and even further to the feelings with which they are said. Point being, I do not go through this process as a whole, because my readers, the people of existence normally have a pre-existing understanding of the smallest of scale things(ex. letters) I speak of, or of the larger end(ex. literature), but never all of it. If they understood all of it, there would be nothing to discuss, it would be a baseline rule of existing to be able to know such things. It is not, so I am given the room to describe it, and the reason to do the describing.

I hate to use this phrase, but I hate it more to stop here without an answer, but here goes. LONG STORY SHORT* , I just wanted to see if there were any out there who agreed with these rulings, and if so, what this entire page(and all the ones above me) means to you now, if you had not truly understood it before. In otherwords, see if it is possible to make applicable what I have stated above.

P.S. Speaking of Greed being incorrectly defined by the "populace" that use it for all forms of Selfishness, I believe Ayn Rand understood this, as she repeated it with the other of the 7 deadly sins, Pride. There is Pride that is used in retaining a title, and things such as dark influences(the type of Influences the antagonists of Atlas Shrugged used), and the word that is mistaken, and called Pride. This word is respect and self respect, senses of achievement in ones own work, and seeing that ones own work is good. This actually makes it possible to say that God was "proud" of his creations, as many have stated, without conflicting with the thought of God commiting a sin. He was not proud, but rather respectful of his own achievements, and of the fruit he had grown in people's existance. The Pride that people use to describe God's affection for creation, is yet another word misdefined as something it is not. "A is not A", is what is being stated when one says that God is Proud, the correct statement is that God is respectful of his achievements. As I said earlier, Misconceptions and their momentum towards philosophical implications, are what I believe are the worlds greatest destroyer, and Concieving truly, and the momentum attributed to that, is the world's greatest grower.

*(I will use caps instead of bolding due to a problem here)

2:00 AM  
Blogger Rob said...

Jesi Excellent blog Gosh as a Christian that loves God and His Son Jesus Christ I felt like a freak always reading Rand. I deplore extremes left or right and most all government is a waste in my eyes. I see so much in the Word on Liberty and Freedom.
Thank you for such wisdom.
rob

10:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

didn't Ayn Rand say that religion is the root of evil?

BAM! shot down a whole blog post with just one sentence? wanna know what else i can do? i can say that Ayn Rand's philosophy is only fuel for selfish assholes trying to sound smart, and i'm a Christian.

10:26 PM  
Anonymous Someone said...

I had no idea where I stood in terms of a specific ideology or philosophy before I discovered Ayn Rand. She helped structure values and views that I have always held.

After a recent battle with an incurable illness, however, I've had experiences that pure rational atheism can't quantify or accurately describe. Finding your page and reading your thoughts was interesting, and have contributed some to my own searching.

Thanks again.

11:58 PM  
Blogger Christopher Budden said...

Jesi,

I'm an Objectivist as well and a gay man. I found Objectivism after having studied Conservatism and Classical Liberalism. Frankly, Objectivism rings more true to me than politics does--since I began seeing politics as basically a system which supports...lying. I think that is much of the reason this country of ours is in the trouble it is in.

I also could never reconcile atheism to myself. Hearing your wonderful description above, however, did cement for me the notion that faith is only dangerous when it supersedes reason and rationality.

For a long time I had my own classically liberal / conservative blog and then, because I needed another way to exercise my higher mind outside of the political realm, I started a second blog devoted to Objectivism.

What you wrote above was very thoughtful, reasoned, and well thought out. Thank you!

P.S. Do you mind if I add you to my blogroll?

http://conservativerainbow.blogspot.com/

http://theobjectivistchronicle.blogspot.com/

Best Wishes,

Chris

3:39 PM  
Anonymous Samuel Jenkins said...

"But why believe in God at all?"

And the #1 reason to believe in a god is...

Because you want to!

"I want to know, and to love, the mind that created the world we live in. I think He gave us a way to find Him" Poor reasoning."

Hooray for objectivity.

8:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jesus was an objectivist. Galt was a Christian. We are to achieve our highest potential in life according to the theme in Atlas. Jesus did this. Did he help the poor always? No. He (through God) ordained his crucifixion when he was only in his 30's. He could have lived to be 500 years old and could have saved millions of afflicted, but he chose to stay true to his highest calling and go forth with his death to save the world. Jesus constantly followed his own path and did his own thing to fulfill the goals of his life. Just like Galt. Oddly enough there are many similarities between Jesus and Galt. Rand creates a contradiction in scoffing at the idea of a higher being; but then writes a 1,000 page book about one. In the end of Atals, Galt is strapped to pain machine that is guaranteed to break anyone. He survives and rises again (although not three days later) to create the new covenant with all people when they decide to “go back to the world”. Jesus can be considered an objectivist because if you believe He is the truth then His relationship with God is real and objective. I am rambling, but my foggy point is that you can say that we cannot be an objectivist and Christian at the same time; yet the Bible's hero is an objectivist and Rand's hero is modeled after Christ.

10:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good discussion, read the whole thing... I'm tired.

9:36 PM  
Anonymous Lisa said...

I couldn't help but smile when I read this comment--I'm LDS as well and was comparing the article to our beliefs and came to a lot of the same conclusions as you did :)

7:23 PM  

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